What does it take to bring your tuna sandwich to the table? A lot of negotiation it turns out and, hopefully, rules and regulations. But as we learn in this episode, a lot of tuna is caught in the lawless environment of the high seas and even the best tuna has problems. This week we’re talking to a range of experts to try to understand what makes a simple sandwich so complicated and what you can do to ensure the best-caught tuna ends up on your plate.
Special Guests
Melissa Clark
Melissa Clark is a food columnist for The New York Times Food Section, where she writes the popular column: A Good Appetite and has starred in over 100 cooking videos. She’s written 43 cookbooks, the latest of which, Kid In The Kitchen, is geared toward teaching ‘tweens and teens to cook. Her last book, Dinner In French, explores French cuisine with her characteristic Brooklyn je ne sais quoi. She’s the recipient of two James Beard Awards and two IACP awards (International Association of Culinary Professionals), and her work has been selected for the Best American Food Writing series. Clark was born and raised in Brooklyn, New York, where she now lives with her husband and daughter.
Ian Urbina
Ian Urbina is an investigative reporter who writes most often for The New York Times, and is also a contributing writer for The Atlantic and The New Yorker. Urbina is the author of The New York Times bestseller The Outlaw Ocean, based on more than five years of reporting. The book branched into The Outlaw Ocean Project, a non-profit journalism organization that produces high-impact investigative stories about lawlessness at sea and the diversity of environmental, human rights, and labor abuses occurring offshore around the world. As a journalist, his investigations typically focus on human rights, worker safety and the environment, and he has received a Pulitzer Prize and a George Polk Award, and has been nominated for an Emmy.
Carrie Brownstein
Carrie Brownstein has spent the past 21 years collaborating with fish farmers, fishermen, environmental groups, scientists and skilled seafood buyers to build a more sustainable seafood market. In her role as Principal Quality Standards Advisor, Seafood for Whole Foods Market, Carrie develops sourcing policies, such as their industry-leading policy for canned tuna to prevent bycatch and support environmentally-friendly fishing jobs. Behind the scenes, she develops and manages the programs necessary for implementing standards for seafood sold at all of Whole Foods Market stores. Carrie’s work drives responsible aquaculture production, reverses trends in overfishing and bycatch in wild capture fisheries, promotes traceability, and puts the industry on the right track toward greater sustainability. Carrie’s work focuses on creating a model for the seafood industry that supports healthier oceans and communities. Whether in-office, at a fishing dock, or at a conference, she aims to create a seafood market that supports responsible aquaculture production, reverses trends in overfishing and bycatch, and puts us on the right track toward greater sustainability.
Quentin Hanich
Associate Professor Quentin Hanich leads the Fisheries Governance Research Program at the Australian National Centre for Ocean Resources and Security (ANCORS), University of Wollongong, where he is a Nippon Foundation Ocean Nexus Chair. Quentin has worked widely throughout the Asia Pacific region in various international research partnerships focusing on ocean governance and emerging technologies, marine conservation, fisheries management and development. He has chaired international working groups at treaty meetings, facilitated inter-governmental workshops, and advised Ministerial meetings and national delegations. Quentin is also the Editor-in-Chief of the Elsevier journal Marine Policy, a Principal Investigator in the Nippon Foundation funded Ocean Nexus Program, a research partner with the Japanese Fisheries Research and Education Agency and Global Fishing Watch, and an Adjunct Scholar at Dalhousie University.
Umiich Sengebau
In 2013, Umiich Sengebau was appointed and confirmed as the Minister for the Ministry of Natural Resources, Environment and Tourism for the Republic of Palau. He is responsible for the management, protection, and development of Palau’s natural resources, including guiding the implementation of Protected Areas Network (PAN) program and the Palau National Marine Sanctuary initiative. He also oversees the nation’s transition to a domestic pelagic fisheries industry following the passage of the landmark Palau National Marine Sanctuary Act in 2015. He is a member of Palau Conservation Society Board of Directors and Palau Protected Areas Network (PAN) Fund, and also served on Environmental Quality Protection Board (EQPB) from 2003 to 2009. Above all, he is proud of his long-standing career championing the Republic of Palau’s environmental vision.
Show Notes
On today’s episode of Fish Talk, we’re going to unpack canned tuna and find out what’s really inside. To go along with the episode, we’ll be preparing a delicious tuna recipe with Melissa Clark of the New York Times. At peak pandemic, canned fish was on everybody’s mind. While tuna salad is available at practically every deli worldwide, Melissa hopes to give people new ideas for preparing the tinned fish. Our recipe today is a tuna panzanella with mozzarella.
While our dish marinates, let’s talk more about tuna. How do we know that the tuna we eat is good for the oceans? This is a question often on the mind of Carrie Brownstein, Director of Whole Foods’ seafood and sustainability program. Whole Foods’ quality standard for all seafood, including tuna, requires the fishery to be certified by the Marine Stewardship Council, a certification program for sustainable fisheries. If not certified by the MSC, it has to be rated green or yellow by the nonprofit Monterey Bay Aquarium Seafood Watch. Canned tuna has the additional requirement that only pole and line, handline or troll fisheries are allowed. Conventional methods for catching tuna are with large nets which produce tons of bycatch. This method also seriously disrupts the dolphin populations of specific areas. FADS, or fish aggregating devices, are floating objects which attract tuna and other sea life. They often cause disruption to sensitive ecosystems and contribute to plastic waste in the ocean.
The supermarket is really just the surface of the tuna business. Before companies like Whole Foods can obtain products, nations must negotiate which countries get what. Next we hear from Quentin Hanich, Lead of the Fisheries Governance Research Program at the Australian National Centre for Ocean Resources and Security, who often sits on these boards. Represented in these meetings are some of the world’s smallest countries by land, but the size of their ocean is huge. He explains how their exclusive economic zones are determined past the coast. Tuna are migratory by nature, which means they pass between these boundaries freely and often. Quentin explains how tuna is regulated country to country, and the importance of fair management. Arguing and fierce debate within these meetings are quite common, and the Pacific has been particularly strategic with their plan.
Next we hear from Ian Urbina, Founder and Director of the Outlaw Ocean Project about the treacheries of the high seas where tuna is caught. The Outlaw Ocean Project is a journalistic nonprofit organization with the goal of producing long narrative investigative stories about human rights labor and environmental abuses at sea around the world. Many people don’t realize that tuna comes from the high seas, beyond the lines of national jurisdiction. Crimes which take place in these areas some 200 miles from shorelines include captive labor, murder, arms trafficking, wage theft and brutal working conditions. There is typically a strict hierarchy aboard these ships, many of which are barely safe enough for sea. Despite these horrors, Ian has observed comradery and a bond between the men aboard.
Out on the open ocean, it’s an ongoing fight for tuna. Nowhere is this fight more intense than in the tiny Republic of Palau, an island in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. Hear from Umiich Sengebau, a senator for the nation, about how they manage to protect their own tuna stocks. Tuna is highly important for the nation, as it provides food for their people as well as revenue for the country. Before there was legislation, any nation could have their hand at the country’s resources. In 2003, Kalau passed a protected areas network to manage their coastal fisheries. Realizing the need to connect coastal waters with high seas, they passed the National Marine Sanctuary to protect 80% of the tuna’s habitats. Kalau sent a strong message to other countries that they will no longer tolerate illegal fishing in their waters, and has seen a huge decrease in activity since.
Key Ideas:
0:00 – Hosts Paul and Nic introduce the podcast series.
1:15 – Preface for today’s episode.
2:20 – Introducing chef Melissa Clark.
8:00 – Speaking with Carrie Brownstein of Whole Foods’ seafood and sustainability program.
16:43 – Speaking with Quentin Hanich of the Australian National Centre for Ocean Resources.
29:35 – Speaking with Ian Urbina of the Outlaw Ocean Project.
35:13 – Speaking with Umiich Sengebau, Senator for the Republic of Palau.
40:55 – The big tuna panzanella revealed.
Links:
Paul Greenberg and his books Four Fish and American Catch.
Nic Mink, and the company he co-founded Sitka Salmon Shares.
Learn more about Melissa Clark.
Learn more about Carrie Brownstein.
Learn more about Quentin Hanich.
Ian Urbina and The Outlaw Ocean Project.
Learn more about Umiich Sengebau.
Episode produced by Alana McKeever
